Genocide In The Eastern Cape
August 31, 2010 by Phathu
This is probably the most difficult article I have ever written for Just Curious. I am about to question a traditional practice that has been ingrained in my head for years, as a descendent of royalty and a man who is more inclined with African culture than most of our readers, I am doing what I am actually not supposed to be doing, talking about circumcision in a public forum. I refuse to be silent while boys continue to die in other parts of this country, when in fact they do not really have to lose their lives in order to gain their manhood.
Guys, allow me to call a spade a spade – there is something wrong with the circumcision practice in the Eastern Cape area and it borders on Genocide! There I have said it, the truth of the matter is that you and I can only remain silent for so long. The other day I was watching Cutting Edge and they were tackling the issue of boys dying in the mountain school, the female producer dared to go where our politicians fear to tread – she wanted to know why boys were losing their manhood, penises falling off like dried peaches. All you had to do was log on to Facebook and see the reactions that people had with regards to the program, most men who had been to komeng were furious, while girlie-girls were cringing – it was riveting TV, but what impact did it have besides giving SABC 1 great ARs?
I have never been to Pondoland, and I do not even know which side to point it, but reports indicate that as of 21 June 2010, 28 boys died of botched initiations and many more died around the greater Eastern Cape area, not Johannesburg or Nelspruit, but the Eastern Cape. This is nothing new; we read and hear about these reports every year. I repeat, there is something fundamentally wrong with most initiations schools in the Eastern Cape. Yes, I am generalizing in the hope that someone, somewhere with more powers than this little site will read this little article and be moved to act. The problem I have at the moment is that no one in the political sector is standing up and saying something, everyone is silent. I know it would be improper for a Zulu president to question this Xhosa practice, but how many Xhosa men sit in parliament and say nothing? Vavi is very vocal when it comes to striking, why is it that people of his calibre are not asking questions and trying to find solutions to the matter?
Circumcision has been part of our culture for years and it is not about to fade away any time soon. I am from the Limpopo area, were circumcision is practiced by Vendas, Tsongas and Bapedi. You rarely, if ever, hear stories of boys dying while at the mountain school. I am 26 years old and in my village we have had more initiations than I care to remember and here is a fact - NEVER – NEVER HAS ANYONE EVER DIED IN THE MOUNTAIN SCHOOL. That means that there is something that people in Limpopo are doing right. I am not in any way attacking the Xhosa culture and its people, that is not my intention – I am just trying to tackle the matter without pussyfooting around it.
This is a sensitive matter that has everyone rubbed up the wrong way. I spoke to a University cultural lecture about this, asking him why boys continued to die in the Eastern Cape, while it rarely happened in Limpopo area. Those who have gone will agree with me, that the practice in Limpopo is still conducted by the custodians of culture, those who have been doing it for years and not everyone can just start an initiation school. We all know it has now become a money making scheme. It was like five hundred in my time. Now what seems to be the problem in the Eastern Cape area is that inexperienced people are entrusted with nip-tucking di-dang, and every Tom, Harry and Dick can suddenly start their own school. This is not the case in the Limpopo area, were the chief is involved in the opening of the initiation school and the selection of the best snip-master. The most important thing about the whole process is the aftercare of the initiate and that person’s di-dang, if one is not experienced enough to make sure that the initiate and his di-dang gets the right aftercare, it becomes septic and eventually falls off or has to be chopped off.
I am sure there also many underlying factors that contribute to the high number of deaths in the Eastern Cape area that also need to be unpacked. I could be wrong, but generally, in the Eastern Cape area boys go while they are a bit older, so di-dang takes longer to heal, add an inexperienced team = disaster. Whereas in Limpopo the teenage years are considered the right time to get done. There is also the factor of the season, in Limpopo, it’s always done in winter – but pick up a newspaper around December and you’ll hear about another sad tale of an initiate who will not make it home for Christmas, even though it mostly occurs in winter in the Eastern Cape. For those who don’t know, it heals much quicker in winter than summer. I know that no parent would send their child to die, but I also wonder where are the parents, what role should they are play in this instance. I am not saying Limpopo is the beacon of all good things, it has its flaws but for this discussion, it serves as a good reference.
The custodians of the Xhosa culture should be the ones making the most noise, because I refuse to believe that it is all bad in the Eastern Cape, if done the right way– no one has to die or have their di-dang chopped off. I have plenty Xhosa friends who tell good tales about their experience there, usually after too much Johnny Walker. At the moment the custodians remain silent and attack journalists for not respecting culture or being African enough. I refuse to subscribe to a culture that wants to kill boys, that is murder!
As a nation, we are very vocal about woman abuse, media rights and human rights violation but no one is stepping up to create and enforce legislature that will protect the interest of these young men. I wish I had a solution on how to best deal with this, but I do not and I always hope that through a robust debate, someone can come up with a better solution. Should we just keep quiet and swear that if ever we have children, we will not send them to a mountain school in the Eastern Cape area, while we continue sipping cognac in front of the TV? What is happening in the Eastern Cape area is genocide.
I hope that with this will get you talking about this matter, as I believe that there are those who are just as gatvol as I am. This article is about saying what is happening and being frank about it.
By Phathu Makwarela ©
Bee on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 1:10 am
Wow ok as i don believe in and practice any kind of tradition i’ll leave this to kosazi. I would love to think that its men um talkin about.
lorrelai on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 1:13 am
personally i dont know the real reason for the problem but i suspect that patience (on the part of the snippee) & greed (on the snippers part) has a lot to do with it. e.g this young boy in grade 10 found out that his friends were going to initiation school, he obviously didnt wanna be left out for whatever reason. went to his parents to ask to go as well, but unfortunately the parents refused cos they were not ready financially (his age was ok mos). now where i come from, there’s a lot that goes on before the actual circumcision takes place: medical tests, parents have to approve in writting, the boy must be accompanied by parents with proof of identification & so on. now because this boy doesnt have parental consent, & obviously cant afford to take the legal route that’s beneficial for him healthwise, he cuts corners, goes to the untrained, inexperienced man who’ll circumcize him @ half the price & voila! maybe in Limpompo, the rules are stricter in as far as who’s qualified to circumcize, & maybe thats where the eastern capers fail. as for the silence: as far as my observation goes, males are very secretive about what goes on in the mountain. maybe discretion about the whole process is one of the things that r taught up there. but to keep quiet when people r dying is just plain stupid. i hope u will get someone who will give u answers to all your questions, i’m just as confused.
Bija de Beers on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 3:27 am
A very stupid article, you just want sum hype around a custom u hardly knw abt! Stick to ur Venda life, n leave Xhosa life alone coz u nt Xhosa n ul neva b Xhosa… Do u even knw the meaning of the word Genocide? Neva eva read pure shit lyk dis in ma lyf! Perhaps its becoz ur a Venda!
Kiki on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 4:09 am
Thiza!!! Tjo. #TeamPeace bantu bakuthi.
Authentic views on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 6:25 am
Here is my take in this issue. Circumcision has lost its value not just because boys die every season but also there’s no more education which was important part to transform the boy, its mental approach and attitude towards other people in life. Manhood use to be based on values, like some kind of code of conduct ending unrestricted life of being a boys. But these days circumcised boys shed no old habits. 2ndly every tom, dick and harry can just go to initiation school because he doesn’t want to be called inkwenkwe by his peers or no noble course for going, there use to be something more noble to go to initiation school like when you’re written matric exams & you’ll be going to tertiary institution or you’ve working with majority of circumcised men especial in cases where you share toilets & showers. In most colleges at Eastern Cape boys would shower after all men have showered & by then water is cold thats why it was important to go for initiation before going to tertiary. These days you found initiates running up and down the streets in town looking for their fellows to interrogate them (on lessons taught in those schools or whether they took hospital short cut) with hope with that they don’t get everything right so they can fine them. Fine is usually an alcohol, a bottle of brandy. Such as the ills this tradition has created and leading to such mass killings.
Authentic views on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 6:38 am
I’m going to write full opinion piece in this coz I’m from Eastern Cape and understand fully what’s going on. Attitudes like that of Bija de Beer don’t alleviate the problem and Xhosa nation is dying because they keep shooting messengers rather than taking points and move forward.
Twinkyyy on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 6:39 am
LOL ” penises falling off like dried peaches.”
Perzzz on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 6:40 am
Look, I am not a Xhosa. But I have Xhosa friends and one of my friends lost his brother last year. The sad thing about this, as in the case of Bija De Beers is that each time someone asks something, they’re told to shut up. I don’t have to be Xhosa to know that something is going wrong. Something is wrong.
Kiki on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 7:07 am
Aaaw AV uyazi uyibeka the way ingakhona. I don’t know why people always run away from the real problem & start focusing on unecessary topics. Truth is our boys are dying entabeni and something has to be done. We need a solution PERIOD!! Can we not turn this into a tribe issue. Phathu has a point and unyanisile.
Twinkyyy on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 7:20 am
Don’t think it has anything to do with the season.All man in my family went there in summer.
*rolls eyes at the comparison*
Bija is right, u don’t know what u talking!!!!
Nonny on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 7:36 am
Phathu, I have always respected u as a writer, but man after today u have no idea how much u have elivated that respected. Very well put and u have also made it clear that u are not attacking anyone. I love it!
Zeal on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:01 am
Eish, someone needs to intervene ko EC, otherwise families will keep losing their kids!!
Pronto!! Somebody needs to act, real fast!!
I mean ja, we keep saying people must speak up against women abuse and stuff, why should it be any different now? This is abuse, actually, its murder!!
Pele on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:06 am
This is sacred a to me,as to any other man from the Xhosa tribe, but i feel we really need to start campaigns about it. I know my Xhosa brothers will call me names like ”ngukwelecingwei ke lo”, but to be honest this dying is getting to be a norm & happens every year in the EC.
When i saw that boy on TV saying he no longer has a penis , i got angry with elders, and the young one as a well.
Fact is 80% of boys who die, or their penises falling off are boys who go there without permission from their gaurdians, and the ”ingcibis” who cut these boys penis’s are greedy bastards who know nothing about the tradition at all & have no respect for human lives.
In Mdantsane where i grew up, we grew up knowing the best ‘ingcibis’, decent man who never ever had boys dying in the bush, so while you are a boy you know who will be your ‘ingcibi” from the word go and your parents will know you safe in his hands. So much that death was taboo in the bush, hence we went there and came back breathing.
And the main reason our boys are dying is they dont follow the right procedures at all these days, they just wnat to be man. They dont respect tehir lives and unfotunately they meet the same ‘ingcibis” like them who dont respect thier lives tu.
if only our boys will stop this nonsense competition of rushing to go to the bush, only because your friends went there before you. the problem is if your friend you grew up with went in the bush before you, in Xhosa it means that friend is your elder(you will call him -Bhuti), this is where trouble starts.
Author i think the solution to all this , will start by penetrating these well known succesful ‘ingcibis’(which i know it will be very hard to so, as they will feel they are selling their own culture when they talk about it openly)in workshops or in pre/post-initiation courses, radio programmes etc.
They will give guidelines, rules to the boys of what to expect from the bush. What they should eat before the ‘snip’, how they should prepare themselves, and also advicing against doing it without gaurdians permision as it has proven it is dangerous. And hoepfully boys will start letting go of the EGO and wait until their time comes….
As for the ppl saying you must shut up, they can go to hell , as this is no joke, it is about young boys dying carelessly.
Lela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:13 am
Phathu good article,this is one of the things that just make my blood boil. These boys are dying and those who dont die lend up in hospital and if they are lucky they still have a penis after that. What is the point really?if they always end up in hospital why not just do it there anyway but Xhosa men dont wanna hear none of it to a point even those who dont have to climb a mountain to be a man are not regarded as men by Xhosas. Thank God I’m gonna marry a Zulu so my boy child will be chopped at 8days qha. Abafazi bathandaza ongena amen xa kufika ixesha lokwaluka!
Maverick on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:17 am
But why do parents still allow their kids to go to entabeni knowing very well about these death’s,whats wrong with going to the Hospital & getting job done there?
Lela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:21 am
Another thing is there is a lot of wickedness that happens there hence no one who goes there wants to say anything. Than man on CE said kuthwa mabenze isex edongeni(have sex with the wall),how can you do that with a snipped penis. There are many other abusive tthings that happen there so ja if we gonna speak about abuse lets speak it on all levels or else this will never end.
Dladla on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:23 am
Of course, Phathu is not attacking anyone but a culture he is clearly clueless about.
1. All the stuff he is saying is said and known by women,those who never went to initiation school and those who were initiated differently from the “normal” Xhosa way.
2. I would have understood if Phathu had asked, did a bit more of a research (instead of speaking to a professor????), ask men who know this from experience. Xhosa men form the Eastern Cape.
3. The reason these boys die Phathu is because, some of them go to the do without being prepared to go (only Xhosa men would know what I mean), they steal themselves. We call that ukuziba. Consequently, they get “touched” but their friends, or peeps whom they thought can do the job or drunk men who believe that ulwaluko is merely about “cutting” iJwabu.
4. You made a very stupi point Phathu, and somehow I refuse to believe that the Phathu I know said something so ludecris… You say, “in the Eastern Cape area boys go while they are a bit older, so di-dang takes longer to heal…” – Uxokelantoni Phathu??? How old is old? And how do you know the right age for Xhosa men to go to initiation school??? You even speak of seasons???? Heeeelllllooooowwwww!!!! Dude, stick to what you know, and that is what Venda mean, people do and leave the matter to those who know more about it.
Yes, children die there, but why not look at how they go there instead of what they do there???
My advise to you Phathu, speak to Andile Mngxithama, from the Sowetan (he is Xhosa) and (I think) he is against the initiation thing in the EC, maybe then you will get to understand just what kill these boys and not feed us tales you here from shows produced by women and men who have never been in present when boys are initiated.
You usually write about stuff you know (and have researched) so well, but today you just went on some tip i don’t even understand.
Ouh, and before I forget, you must understand this Phathu, initiation is not something fully understood by the elite and the educated peeps.
I went to initiation school, and I was “touched” by a man who does not know ukuba umnyango wesikolo unjani.
pinana on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:37 am
Tjo… interesting replies indeed. Just that once again bloggers are arguing Phathu’s “cluelessness” instead of pointing out what they themselves think about the issue at hand.
Fact is:
- the boys are dying, so-called initiation schools are mushrooming all over the place, opened by people more “clueless” than the writer of the article.
- nobody is talking openly.
- nothing seems to be done.
And fact is, this issue is a clear concern and it obviously affects the future of the country.
I think the reason Phathu put the article together was because he wanted other people to voice their opinions. I think the very last line of this article says exactly what he wanted to achieve with this…
Its sad that we can have a thousand campaigns around the country about condomising and eliminating the element of surprise blah blah.. and we support them…. but when it comes to this kind of issues that are just as detrimental to the lives of many South Africans, we choose to point fingers at one another and state how unknowing some of us are because of our tribes.. . nc nc nc SMH
Phz on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:42 am
The fact here is boys are dying and what are you Xhosa Men doing about it rather than saying people are stupid when tackling the issue..wether the issue is broght foward ny a venda or a woman for it doesnt matter..a real mother is the one who will be concern when boys die like this..and only a real and brave man will raise issues like this..Dlala what have you done to safe lifes of this young boys as a Xhosa MEN??? this has been happening for way too long for us to be quite and keep on justifing it gore is done by greedy drunk men…thats just bull…
Pele on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:44 am
Lela these boys who get to be abused in the bush, are boys who go there at their will without permisssion from their gaurdians . This must be a lesson to th boys that dont do to things that are meant for adults, to be honest i am more angry with boys doing this to themselves behind their gaurdians backs and then cry foul. tehy dont mention teh fatc that tehy went there without teh permissions and guidelines tehy just go there. and if you willing to take tht risk with your life, suffer the consequences and live the culture to those who obey and know it.
I have never had of such until that day on Cutting Edge, clearly this shows negligence from the boys part, they must stop this rush-rush and wait for the elders.
Maverick, you must be joking me..
If this culture could be respected by the boys and their fake ingcibis this will end, not the culture that can be done by its own experts with zero deaths.
nan on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:44 am
@Authentic Views: “Manhood use to be based on values, like some kind of code of conduct ending unrestricted life of being a boys. But these days circumcised boys shed no old habits. 2ndly every tom, dick and harry can just go to initiation school because he doesn’t want to be called inkwenkwe by his peers or no noble course for going, there use to be something more noble to go to initiation school like when you’re written matric exams & you’ll be going to tertiary institution or you’ve working with majority of circumcised men especial in cases where you share toilets & showers.”
I couldn’t agree with you more … am waiting with bathed breath for that piece hey…
There is nothing wrong with the practice…what is wrong is abantu abanyolukileyo and those who misuse it for their own selfish reasons…
Fezzy on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:47 am
Hayi abanye abantu ba emotional these days….
lorrelai on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:50 am
this is a sensitive issue indeed. Dladla has made some valid points, but still… the death rate as far as circumcision is concerned in the ECP is shocking, something must be done. i’m glad Phathu raised the matter, he has guts for talking about something nobody wants to talk about. obviously i’m a woman & i’m clueless in the matter but what are elders, males who are in the know doing about it?
Kiki on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:52 am
Fezzy I feel you!!!
ntshepeng on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:52 am
*silent blogs*
TheSweetOne on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:57 am
Phathu No tou rwa ntha ha thoho. well written homeboy.
I think the fact that Phathu does not know about the Xhosa culture is not an issue here, the issue is boys are dying and he is just trying to understand why? something that never happens in our province Limpopo. So lets not start shooting bullets bazalwane, The Xhosas must just go back to the drawing board and stop being in denial about how we knw nothing about their culture. Weather they like it or not they are the talk of town. white ppl are laughing at us please!!
Dladla on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:04 am
Nan, your last paragraph is sickly on point.
Phz, I’m assuming you meant Dladla… Now, I think you missed my point… What am I suppose to do when a boy who is in a hurry to go to the bushes, in the process foresakes his folks??? Am I suppose to intervene and say what??? Hayi nkwenkwe, linda ixesha lakho de lifike??? hayi dude, la makhwenkwe aneenkani qha.
pie on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:15 am
lol @ “white people are laughing at us”
Kiki on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:20 am
The point is Phathu is talking about something that is happening to our brothers. They are dying. So Phathu being Venda changes nothing on this issue.The boys are dying qha! To those who ‘know’ more about the Xhosa culture than Phathu & us diluted Xhosas please come up with solutions for this.Iyona qha into esiycelayo.
The day I have a son,all will be done in hospital.No ntaba for my son thank u.
Phathu Makwarela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:29 am
Guys…Let us not MISS the point of this discussion. The FACT is that BOYS are dying. I dont have to be Xhosa to know that….like I said, becoz I am not there – THERE ARE ALSO MANY UNDERLYING FACTORS THAT ALSO PLAY A ROLE….Dlala you were on point at the start of the review BUT then you got personal. As Xhosa brother, I am expecting you to shed more light, like you did about how to SOLVE the matter…bcoz we do need to put an end to this or boys will continue to die.
Monchooza on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:31 am
*silent bloggin on this one too*
Ivanka on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:38 am
I am a Xhosa woman, so Phatu my friend brace yourself cause men are about to get emotional and defensive about this topic, it is a very sensitive and secretive issue to them and Gawd knows why cause the boys are dying and someone needs to intervene. The fact is every woman in the Phondoland EC fears the word UKWALUKA” its a killer.
At it happens mostly on the other side of the EE, mampondweni. I never hear much of it where i come from.
We hear stories of what was done in the past and is not respected now or practised. Even small matters apparently can affect a boys healing or lead to death.
back in the days salt was only aloud there after a certain period, Cellphone or any other means of communication to the outside world was prohibitad. Lots of luxuries were a big NO NO NO, but these days Oomama bethu bathi if my child wants amaAll Brans thats what he will get.
Off course we are just speculating as no Xhosa men ever wants to talk about anything that goes down there.
Part of me believes if they are cut off the luxuries that they were not allowed back then, if would help but, again I am hust saying cuase andazi babulawa yini.
Ivanka on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:41 am
I meant XHOSA men are about to get emotional and defensive.
mshefane on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:44 am
@Bija de Beers — u r such an idiot.. can u even read english u moron?
great article phatu.. hopefully o Vavi can actually do something to protect these boys!
Groupie on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:47 am
Big Ups Phathu for bringing up a topic that SO called Xhosa Men run away from. If those Xhosa Men were brave enough to explain what is wrong u wuldnt have written this article bcoz u wuld have known what is wrong.. Xhosa Men get so emotional when it comes to this topic instead of facing reality and solving the problem. They saying the Initiation custom originated from Xhosa’s but now it seems as if Liyabohlula..
Whether u r Venda or I am a Xhosa woman, its our children and brothers that die there. Something needs to be done and very soon.
Ivanka on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:51 am
And aparently amaphondo never use to practice this culture in th elden days. It only started in the recent says as a result of boarding schools and tertiary institutions. We all know emaxhoseni for you to be respected and called a man you got to be circ…., regardless of what age you are. As they are aslo Xhosa’s just from a diff house it became difficult for a 26 yr old boy to be called intwana by a 18 yr old man just becuase akolukanga so they went and did it even though ingelosiko labo.
Some people believes that is why they are dying.
However, if they did it in ancient years and stoped, then started again, no one knows how is was done then, they just doing it like abathembu or something. I am sure its not just about the cutting, there are rituals involved or something.
Luluwise on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:56 am
This tradition is old and revered & respected in our Xhosa culture therefore we don’t take kindly to it being attacked in a manner that seems condescending. We all have opinions on the matter and being lous and obnoxious won’t solve anything, so lets discuss the issue soberly and stop attacking people. Yes it is shocking that many boys are dying in large numbers. I am a mother of a 2 year old boy who will one day decide to go to initiation school and I am therefore interested in the practice. I will not close my eyes and keep quiet when children are dying in large numbers. As interested parties we need to make enough noise for all stakeholders to sit up and listen. The measures the govt has put in place are working in other areas of the province, yet the problem persists in Pondoland. Many writers have speculated why this problem in prevalent in that area only but until society works together and mounts up aggressive educational campaigns to change minds & attitudes and develop new procedures, change won’t come. The tradition is still veiled in secrecy and is exclusive making it harder for “outsiders” to penetrate and understand its intricacies, hence many shy away from openly discussing it. So hollering and throwing stones won’t help, rather lets discuss sensitively with compassion and lets continue raising awareness.
Zeal on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 9:57 am
instead of attacking Phathu for this and that and ‘not knowing what he’s talking about’ maybe you could have corrected him nicely Dladla because seemingly you know exactly whats going on!! yes, give us the facts, dont crucify Phathu and stuff!!
you could just have said ‘okay guys, this is the real reason that theose boys die’ see, easy as pie, no need to attack Phathu!! #asyouwere
Miss A on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:03 am
Haai,people are being childish manje…Who give a rats ass that Phatu is not Xhosa…what people seem to forget is, these boys that go to the Mt come back either dead or with no penises… My take on culture or tradition is that it has to evolve, I do not see how chopping ones foreskin make them a man??? Your own father or male relative can teach a male child values or being a man,I am not against those that practise it,but surely the times we live in culture has to b updated,go to the clinic for crying out loud.
Lwazi on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:04 am
We should be very careful when talking about this matter- even the title of the article is botched… Which really tells that Phathu doesn’t know what he is talking about. I have an idea, stick to talking about TV, mpinch’am!
kk on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:07 am
The sad part about this is XHOSAS think they are the only ones who can talk about such things.KIDS are dying and it doesnt matter if they are xhosa or pedi or sotho,death is death.Phathu might not have done enough research but he still raised something XHOSAS still dnt want to talk about.
If amadoda really think they get taught life issues that you can get anywhere,why are they not teaching the whole SA men about them so we can better ourselves??
The blame seems to be shifting to kids who go there without their parents concern,how about those who were taken by force??What about those who were taken by their parents and still died?? Fact is not all kids who die went there without their parents concern,Fact is kids still die and nobody wants to talk.
I urge the government to close down all initiation schools until ELDERS are prepared to sit down and talk about this issues.They must show the government plans to avoid kids going without their parents concern,kids being taken by force(MBALULA),and kids who dnt have MEN intheir households to teach them…
lebza4sh0 on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:22 am
ya neh this seems to be a sensitive issue hey, this is not a personal attack but an issue Phatu raised and if you watch the news, you know that this is really happening. we just need solutions and not more problems
Sobza on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:23 am
I went through the same tradition and I was fortunate enough to be cut by an experienced traditional practitioner who had done the job for more than 30 yrs.
For those of you who have no clue of what is going on there, during the circumcision period the initiate is tutored by the elders on cultural and health issues such as taking care of the genitals, sex education, and information on the dangers of promiscuity.
Please not; secrecy is imperative during the entire procedure and must be strictly maintained. It is taboo to ask questions about male initiation lodges, to discuss these in public, or to disclose the secrets of men’s initiation to uninitiated persons. It is also taboo for women and uninitiated males to intrude into men’s initiation lodges.
The main contributors to the deaths of these young boys are negligent nurses(amakhankatha) unqualified surgeons, irresponsible parents and youths medically unfit for the hardships of initiation continue to contribute to tragic outcomes. It’s unfortunate that lack of professionalism has harmed the reputation of the institution and has often led to tragic consequences.
The legislature in the Eastern Cape passed the Application of Health Standards in Traditional Circumcision Act intended to control the hygienic standards of circumcision, and to regulate the conduct of all those involved. Traditional practitioners have to apply for written permission to perform circumcisions, to hold circumcision schools and to treat initiates. Permission is granted by the medical officer designated for the area.
One of the preconditions is the guarantee of sterile instruments. Prospective initiates have to undergo a pre-circumcision medical examination by a medical doctor to establish their fitness for the procedure. In the case of initiates below the age of 18 years the written consent of a parent or guardian is required.
Unfortunately the traditional leaders believe that this act is undermining the custom as most of the people who came up with it were women.
This will only be solved if and when traditional surgeons, traditional nurses, traditional leaders, traditional healers, officials from the Department of Health, the police and the community work together in order to improve the situation.
Fruitcake on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:31 am
Khaya Dlanga wrote about the issue in his column ya news24, He is a Xhosa man who went to the mountains. Pity I dont have a link to that article but he made valid points there.
As for issue ya di season, I beg to differ, Basotho do their initiation ka summer and the death rate is almost none existent. Also before a child attends this school, they are taken to a doctor for a check up, the police are also involved, they go and inspect the food and the place where the initiates are going to stay, and members of the community have to write affidavits vouching for the credibility of the traditional surgeon.
From time to time the police go to the mountain to check up on the kids, unlike in the past morden medicine is now allowed in the mountains. (All this is done in Qwaqwa, I dont no about other areas tsa Basotho).
A traditional surgeon also applies before opening an initiation school, and the are a lot of factors that are considered before they get approved and from time to time the police will come and check the permits, if there is no permit, the school get closed. It is a daunting process but it is so worth it.
If the Xhosa people can adopt the same procedure maybe the death rate can decrease.
Thabsi on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:34 am
Well said Sobza
TL on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:35 am
If inkwenkwe iziba to entabeni can he NOT be fetched? Doesn’t ingcibi know that the boy is there ilegally?
Zulus are about to start practising this culture AGAIN…I hope we don’t have boys dying there too.
Luluwise on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:37 am
Thank Sobza and Fruitcake for contributing positively to the discussion. Phathu’s aim is to get people talking and to share information to benefit the people and mostly the affected parties.
Mpintshi on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:39 am
the major problem with ulwaluko is that the tradition is no longer respected inkwenkwe can get circumsised wheneva he feels he’s ready its no longer a decision made by the father and elders…and also they get to have cellphones and communicate with their mothers which was neva allowed!!!!!
jackie R on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:41 am
the issue of going 2 mountains must stop now coz ppl are losing their lives regardless of which culture u coming from….. HOSPITAL IS THE ONLY SAFE PLACE THAN MOUNTAIN.
*THUMBS UP HOSPITAL* THUMBS DOWN MOUNTAIN*
Lady gaga on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:45 am
hai im lazy to read maan!!
Miss A on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:57 am
@ Fruity and Sobza… u make valid point unlike some poeople who defend culture even if it is flawed… merge both tradition and modern medicine… the times have changed… men are not as phyisically strong as they were because of diet,etc
koko on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:00 am
heheh.. why do I suddenly get a nudge to go start a “JC BLOGGER DECLARES GENOCIDE – THIS IS TRADITION!” blog on a certain black background???? lol
Thato on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:07 am
Maybe the goverment should start tenders for experienced surgeons! And only a traditional healer that has a tender can initiate boys! This tradition is not going anywhere so yeah we should get guys like those Sobza went to, to bid for the tender!
Great article mokgotsi, u don’t have to be a xhosa man to see a problem! Some xhosa men become emotional and not objective about this, I am dating a xhosa I know!
Thato on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:10 am
A traditional surgeon!
Buhlebonga on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:12 am
Tough topic. As a Zulu man I was concerned when Inkosi Zwelithini kaBhekuzulu said that he wants Zulu men to be circumcised and teh first thing taht popped into my head was the Eastern Cape! I really had a personal attachement to the story because I didn’t want the same thing to happen in KZN! I did the story and made sure that I find out wtf he meant about this and why the sudden call for circumcision, and also teh fact that circumcision was abolished by Shaka in like the 18th century, so like who knows about circumcising???
It turns out that its actually going to be a medical procedure, using the Tara Klamp. It will also be traditional because it would have traditional leaders teaching young men the way of life, how to conduct yourself as a man and treat women, how to treat yourself with respect and it would be a three day camp where all these issues will be discussed. The one thing that stood out was that it was another method of trying to curb HIV in KZN, so you know it think that its pretty cool.
I cannot comment on the Xhosa’s because I don’t want to sound insensitive and disrespect their culture. Just my two cents worth
NthabiVDK on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:20 am
Well said Sobza..there was also an inquiry into initiation schools in 2001 which produced a report to parliament that enabled the Act to be ammended. Traditional Healers of SA is also looking into these deaths thou they do not agree with this information b known. INkosi’s r being taught and most of ezi Nkosi are not educated and this is the cos of the delay in things being implemented. Unfortunately kids r still dying.
Kiki on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:20 am
@koko mara wena??? kwaaaaaaaaaaa you just killed me dead.
Brown Shuga on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:25 am
Loving the discussions…
Groupie on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:25 am
Sobza we need more men like U here…
mshefane on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:32 am
eish, people stay clear from writing essays..#moer, cnt b reading all of this ish..let me go perv on minenhle’s facebook pix
Miss A on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:35 am
@ Buhlebonga… Chopping foreskin wont curb HIV in KZN…its just statistics… it eliminates a certain percantage what happens to the difference? What men esp balck must be taught is it is not cool to be having multiple partners ngoba u wanna be isoka,a player etc… Zwelithini must just chill.
mama ka Gundi on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 11:42 am
Im 4rm EC (Aliwal North,Sterkspruit) and its rare actually i have neva heard of ukufa of boys going entabeni. I got the shock of my life when i was in EL ( mdantsane )& saw amakralwa on the street nje budlabha careless mingling with friends in their blankets HAAibo ismanga esingaka !!! Thina this custom is so sacred ,feared & yes ppl talk about but its secretly done u wil neva see amakrwala unless bayabuya & if u do ur in danger Eish yazi There is a reason y lento yenzwa Entabeni Sobza has said enuff & in some Xhosa tribes they have lost the value & respect 4it ,wuwiii its disgusting Actually enuf said !!
Ivanka on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:04 pm
My sentiments exactly exactly Mama KaG, the loss of respesct and value has an impcat.
Phathu I agree with you but GENOCIDE? thats a JC BLOOGER GOING TOO FAR..kwaaaaaaaaaaaaaa….wonder which tribe shim falls on.
Buhlebonga on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:13 pm
I am aware of the fact Miss A, i alsothink its pointless if ppl are gonna be circumcised, yet they still have unsafe sex. I was just saying that the king brought it back because he wanted to fight the virus, like how he also doesn’t want the Reed Dance to be abolished, because he wants girls to be virgins and abstain from sex. ( even though it s perfect hunting ground for him and his cronies)
There is still much more research to be done though
lebza4sh0 on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:17 pm
kwaaaaaa at JC BLOGGER goes too far, lol. but guys blogging is about sharing opinions so lets all tackle the issue and stop being personal.
Miss A on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:26 pm
@ buhleBonga… and Lehakoe thinks I am anti-BuhleBonga… Ok… maybe s/he is looking at ur post… and also I seem to wonder why this virgin thing is always directed at women??? i honestly feel our black leaders both traditional and political are always pushing irrelevant agendas that they think is for our benefit… I know I am off topic…
PlatinumPiedPiper on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:26 pm
You dont have to be a xhosa person to question why people are dying because of circumsision in the EC.
To those that have gone to circumsion schools are your childish comments what they taught you at circumsion school?
Miss A on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:32 pm
@ PlatinumPP… its their culture and has nothing to do with their opinions… some people are like Sobza are making valid points…
lorrelai on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:51 pm
@Sobza & Fruitcake, big up yourselves, this is the response i’ve been hoping to come across all day. & @koko, lol, uthanda icontroversy!!
Phathu Makwarela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 12:55 pm
Now this is the ONLY REASON why I do this gig….to get us talking and debating as a society about matters that impact our lives. Thank you
Fascinating emotional responses,,,,
Bruised Ego on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 1:16 pm
Saying someone cannot comment about Xhosa related issues just because he’s not Xhosa, its like saying I can’t comment on HIV coz I’m not infected with it!
People must wake up & smell the coffee, this is blogging you don’t have to reference everything you’re saying as if you’re writing an assignment!
Nuffsaid about boys dying and that’s the issue we need to tackle here, why they are dying? What is being done wrong? Or what needs to be done to stop this?
My concern is that if you take your child at an early age to be circumcised at the hospital, will he still be labeled as not being a man just because he didn’t go to the “famous” mountain?
lebza4shO on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 1:53 pm
Kwaaaaa @Bruised Ego, lol you just killed me. But you made a valid point kwaaa
Uthando on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 1:58 pm
eyi guys kunzima la………..
Lela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 4:26 pm
Hayi ke Dladla phambene ngoba ots a known fact that ijwabi elisikwe lilidala liphola kade kunelisikwe lilincinci that’s why in most cultures they do it very early like 8days for Jews and others and around ten years or so Limpopo side,obviously a 10yr old jwabi will phola faster than an 18year old one eselikwazi notshina.
sir loyd on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 6:54 pm
Dear Phathu
I think you ruined a perfectly good article by referring to the issue as genocide. That is a bit sensationalist, I am certain you are aware of the implications of that word. Refer to Rwanda or what is allegedly happening in Darfur. Unless you believe that the fake ingcibi’s doing this are from another ethnic group and are essentially attempting to wipe out the Xhosa nation – which I doubt! Great conspiracy theory, but I do not believe that is what you are attempting to say here…
We must careful of not sounding like typical SA politicians,throwing around words are willy nilly!
Now back to the topic at hand…
1. there are greedy people who would do anything for money at the expense of other people’s lives
2. there are young boys who are ill informed and therefore place their lives in danger because of whatever pressures.
Solution = 1. regulation by government/village chief etc and 2. Education for the kids so they are aware of the dangers.
this is not about venda/xhosa or whatever…there is a model that works and one that is clearly not working, the question is how do we implement the working model to the EC. There is very little your older johnny walker drinking xhosa men can do with what is going on in the EC,except maybe to talk to family members about it.
Its time to educate and root out the criminals that are trying to perverse a cultural ritual which many hold men hold dear to them….
So essentially – no genocide there ( and please use the word sparingly…) just a change in regulation and approach to a situation that is getting out of hand!
Over 1000 people die in SA every December because of car accidents…do we call that genocide! no…government regulates (sends out metro police) and we as drivers should not drink and drive etc….
Simple, dual responsibility…its about time the people in the EC did the same regarding this issue…regulate and inform.
End of story….a little disappointed in you! Lets hope in your next article you open up a good debate without sensationalising…keep your head up son, I still got mad love for you.
Double Delicious on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 8:42 pm
This is one part my culture as a Xhosa woman that I don’t discuss; simply because I know nothing about.
Lela on Tue, 31st Aug 2010 10:43 pm
#team hospital
Phathu Makwarela on Wed, 1st Sep 2010 8:47 am
Sir Loyd
Thank you for the feedback. However, I refuse to find any other word that is suitable to describe such senseless mutilation of Xhosa boys in the Eastern Cape area. If using the word “GENOCIDE” got people to react, I can be able to live with some of the insults on the article. You have provided very solid solutions to the problem, and that is what we need. However, it is your obsession with the word “GENOCIDE” that unsettles me a little. Yes, this problem is persists in a Xhosa ethnicity area, hence I used the word genocide. I do not want to debate the usage of one word over another, the problem persists while we are busy debating over words online. Call me sensationalist sir, but this time – I will accept it. A part of me wants to say I am sorry that you are disappointed in me, but I would be lying if I admit to that. Because I am really too pissed about these deaths to worry about words and sentiments.
Thank you for the mad love
akaloza on Wed, 1st Sep 2010 1:39 pm
wathetha kwavokotheka………..this is indeed a good topic and indeed true Phatu,but as an Xhosa woman id rather not comment just to show how much i respect my culture.
as an indevidual i think it is best that way,not that i dnt see what the culter or practise has really turned out to be,through education i learnt about this tradition and it indeed is painfull on how we loose some of our brothers instead of celebrating for their manwood we atrtedn funerals.
i am not offended by the comments but i just want to appreciate all the efford that u have put on the topic but as we all know it always vanishes in the thin air and nothing is ever done about it,i felt so angry when i was watching CUTTING EDGE on the 13/08/2010 when an old man said that he was once arrested and was practised in in prison,how on earth are those will initiates be treated because all that was done was private and there was medication or an educated person involve.
Ndiyavuma lisko but i really secon Phatu that the officials should do something as the whole this has gone out of hand……I thank-u
kakapana on Wed, 1st Sep 2010 5:49 pm
lol @ team this team that
Fab Tee on Thu, 2nd Sep 2010 12:14 am
The only problem i have with generalising this as a problem of the Eastern Cape,when this mostly happens emaMpondweni in the Transkei,the Eastern Cape is a very huge province,im frm the former Ciskei area and im proud to say i hav uncles,cousins and brothers who hav gone and came back,actuali i’ve never heard of a single death in my area,so i hate that u generalise coz this obviously a problem etranskei ngabo who must be doing something wrong!…i hav a baby son and i knw tht one day uzoya entabeni andinayo neworry coz i knw he’ll be in good hands and none of this hospital nonsense..there’s nothing wrong with the cultural practise just with their(amampondo)implementation!
Lustagp on Thu, 2nd Sep 2010 3:07 pm
@Pele i can never had said it better myself, these boys must also take responsiblity for their own lives.
Rushing to be called man and teking shortcuts is not going to reduce these deaths at all.
Genocide–tjoo that’s a big word Sir!!
Ginger on Sat, 4th Sep 2010 11:20 pm
I’m from the Eastern Cape and ndili Mpondo.Big up to Phathu for raising the issue but I wish some of his statements were well researched.I believe in the practise and have so much respect.The government is trying to do something to help with the problem but the problem is the boys who end up dying.There is so much pressure to be a man that ‘bayaziba’ before they’re ready to go ejungle.Sometimes they circumcise each other.I think it’s the family’s responsibility to teach their kids right and wrong.I’ve had brothers,friends,cousins etc that have gone up to the mountain and came back fine.In my family it’s decided by the father together with the son.Then you report to your mother that you’re going.
Parents should talk to their kids qha.
Filmaddict on Tue, 7th Sep 2010 4:39 pm
This is a problem everywhere…not just in the Eastern Cape. It’s a problem in Limpopo too and they die too. I take its easy to justify than to tell facts. I am not going to speculate about culture but I commend the writer for his courage although the article lacks depth and is full of emotions, it is a problem that must be addressed. Eastern Cape is no longer an indipendent state but our province and yes i picked that…Limpopo is not perfect either in fact I could generalise and say, they have more witches that could cover half of one of province meaning the death of the initiates is nothing. You did something and I am proud. This is a sensitive subject and it deserves that. And just because you know it doesn’t mean you know all of it and remind me again, why did you speak to the professor? You could have spoken to an ordinary member of society who have been performing such, just my take cause i would have loved to hear that. I love JC because of the quality but the language you used to communicate this very important part of our culture is not okay (for a lack of a better word). It sounded like a tsotsi from hamaskraal wrote it trying to be funny. If you want to be funny, be and if you want to serious and tackle a subject matter, do it don’t be undecided right in the middle of the road. At least I have learnt something although I somehow feel insulted not as a Xhosa, Venda or Tsonga but as an African because I am an African.
Mfundo on Wed, 13th Oct 2010 12:54 pm
Ok Phatu thanks for your “concern” with our culture, but please get all your research together before making a misinterpreted conclusion. Firstly, botched circumcision is not the only reason why these boys die, factors like witch craft and not listening also play a vital role. The whole point of the initiation ceremony is to prove to yourself that you can endure pain whether physical or mental. NOw if you are not ready or if you cant handle it then it’s HIGHLY that YOU WILL DIE!! you find that a lil boy who is 13 goes there without permission, now tell me HOW THE HELL CAN A 13 YEAR OLD BOY SURVIVE IN THOSE CONDITIONS?!?! Its evident that he WILL DIE. Going to the mountain is a thin line between life and death, thats why boys have to make sure that they are well prepared before going. On the other hand, some “surgeons” do it for the money, resulting in fatalities. Government IS playing a role in minimizing these. FOr example, an initiate cannot go to the mountain without a certificate stating that he is fit to go, this could be wheter you’re sotho, xhosa or hlubi. Secondly, legal surgeons also need certification from the department of health that they have to produce to the initiate’s father/guardian before the process. thirdly, health inspectors DO visit initiation schools to make sure that everything is legal. SO THE GOVERNMEBT DOES PLAY A ROLE! Its like saying that ALL POOR PEOPLE SHOULD RECEIVE JOBS AT THE SAME TIME. Thats impossible but jobs are being created bit by bit- same goes with the initiation schools.
I’m a proud Xhosa man and i would take my child to the mountain. but i’d make sure that my child precautions in order for everything to run smoothly.
either way thank you…
Thobi.Jones on Mon, 3rd Jan 2011 1:50 pm
http://www.news24.com/Columnists/Khaya-Dlanga/Ban-Xhosa-circumcision-schools-20100629